The Thinker's Despair

[evangelicalhumanist]

Interesting. I think revenge requires an eye for an eye, etc. Justice might better require the best available redress.

My feeling exactly, Kurt. No doubt, when one is guilty of some offense against another person, one ought to try and make some redress, and I think it not unwise that this be to a degree coerced by the state. However, I think that lines have to be drawn. It cannot be right to impoverish an entire family -- kids and all -- for the crimes of one parent. (That was, you will see, not very well thought out. I introduce it merely as a general idea for consideration, not a statement of conviction.)

But forgiveness, the way that I hold the concept, lies outside of redress. I had a friend once (ages and ages ago) who through utter carelessness started a fire in my apartment. He had nothing to offer, as he was essentially unemployable, so he was never going to pay me back. I took him to court for no other reason than to try and avoid some of the nastier insurance ramifications (had it been deemed my "fault" completely). However, though it cost a lot which I never recovered, my forgiveness was complete. In fact, we remained friends for many years, the incident forgotten in speech, until his death.

[Baruch]

Now that is what is called mercy

Shalom

[evangelicalhumanist]

Now that is what is called mercy

Shalom

Well, nothing so wrong with that, either, I would have thought! Even though I'm not a Christian, I am a Shakespearean, and "The quality of mercy is not strain'd..."

It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.

Of course, I was always miffed that Shylock, in the end, and after all that Christian bafflegab, received so little mercy himself. (And by the way, I've never felt that Shakespeare himself was anti-semitic. If you read his Shylock carefully, there appears to be a deep sympathy for circumstances in the play.)

[Kurt]

I agree, EH. Redress and forgiveness can often be separate issues. And I do think that Baruch's application of the word "mercy" to your reaction to your friend's transgression is very apt, since your forgiveness was not just a failure to exact vengeance, but was an active pursuit of further friendship with the offender. After all, you can forgive someone but still not want to ever see them again lest they transgress against you yet again in possibly more egregious ways.Kurt

[Kurt]

EH, you and I must have been writing at the same time. Bravo!

Kurt

[Baruch]

Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy.

Well perhaps we shouldn't overjudge the Bard But alas, neither the contemporaries of the Bard, nor subsequent Europeans in general, headed this good advice of the judge of Venice. I have often made the point, not necessarily implying Original Sin, that vigorous pleas for justice, are often blind of its equal application to the plaintiff and the accused.

Shalom

[Kurt]

In "none of us, Should see salvation", is Shakespeare suggesting that we concentrate on the less lofty, but more reliable justice and mercy?

Kurt

[Baruch]

Well Shakespeare was a nominal Christian, though a pagan at heart (witches of MacBeth). But his plays were all censored, and his audiences were Anglican to Puritan in sentiment. His audience would know how the judge of Venice is a Catholic, and well aware of both nominal Christian dogma, and the quotation from the prophet Micah, about justice, mercy and humility. So I think your insight is partly off.

Shalom

[evangelicalhumanist]

I have often made the point, not necessarily implying Original Sin, that vigorous pleas for justice, are often blind of its equal application to the plaintiff and the accused.

I wonder what brought me back to this thread -- and this post -- after so long an absence. Yet, it seems I never responded to the point above, and it is a most excellent one! I think the most awesome thing about our notions of justice today (however flawed in the execution) is that both accused and plaintiff have an equal right to and expectation of the equal application of the law. And thus, of the justice that flows from it. This, to me, is part of the very soul of humanism.

And I'm pursuaded that old Will had Portia make that very point to Shylock -- that if he could behave perfectly justly, he might just expect the same in return. Because, in the end, justice is a notion just a little bit apart from rights. Shylock may have had a right to "justice and my bond," but it would not, in the circumstance, have been just.

[Baruch]

Well that is the quality of mercy. I may have a right to my pound of flesh, but it is sometimes unjust to take it from you. One should love justice, but practice mercy and humility. Mercy isn't finding the guilty to be not guilty, but in remitting at least part of the justifiable punishment.

Shalom